There are two callings I'm glad I will never have--bishop and ward clerk. At least being a bishop you get a cool seat on the stand. Tell your husband he's a hero :D
And what do you say to someone who, week after week, leaves Church more depressed than they were when they went in?
Someone who stays for the sake of their family, but also feels, unbidden, a growing resentment at the realization that if he had to leave the Church in order to be sane and happy, then his family would feel less sorrow at his death than at his happiness?
Someone who after almost any church meeting feels growing within himself a desperate hope that there is no God and no soul, so that at least in death there will be some rest?
Someone who reads their scriptures and prays and fulfills a calling, but finds no peace?
Someone who finds he is far more able to be good to his family when he has stayed home "sick" on Sundays?
I would say to you, with all the fervor of my soul and every bit of certainty I can muster that Jesus is the Christ, and that His Atonement can restore faith and hope to you in your EVERY need.
Draw upon His strength in prayer, and ask to have the Holy Ghost to be with you. Read the scriptures with a sincere heart, trusting God to come to you through His holy word.
Retaining your membership in the Church cannot be a passive affair. Sometimes you must fight for it, and you must realize that Satan is real and he is working hard to pull you from the safety of the faith he knows you will find in Christ.
Endure well, my friend, and you will rejoice erelong.
What would you say to someone who found out that Joseph Smith sent a man on a mission and ‘married’ his wife while he was gone? What would you say to if you found out that 11 of his ‘wives’ had living husbands? That is what I have found out and now church just feels like a bunch of lies. When I hear about Joseph and Emma’s love letters, I wanna barf.
For someone who is trying to separate yourself from the Church, you don't seem to be able to leave it alone. Otherwise, whether Joseph was an adulterer or a philanderer wouldn't matter to you, and you could be at peace with your misgivings.
Truth be told, you have a choice. You can choose to feel betrayed by something you cannot understand, living with that discontent for the rest of your life--or you can see Joseph for who he really is accept him as a servant of Jesus Christ.
Also keeping in mind that Joseph's personal character has no impact on whether or not the Church is true. If you're going to apostatize, let's not be sloppy about your logic.
(Please do excuse my snideness. Joseph is very dear to me, as is Emma. I assure you I know a great more of them than you do, and I ask you to be civil in your treatment of them both.)
Words fail me. And I'm not even talking about the the flow chart that just blithely flits from solution to solution as if everything is black/white. The comments are what kill me. Holy condescending...
"Also keeping in mind that Joseph's personal character has no impact on whether or not the Church is true."
How does Joseph's character have no bearing on the truthfulness of the church? He's the one that established it. If he's a liar, how are we to believe the foundational stories? Let's not be sloppy about our logic her.
BTW, so bold of you to hide behind comment moderation.
Um, no. Joseph Smith did not establish the Church. It's Christ's Church, and therefore Joseph's personal imperfections have no bearing on its structure or restoration.
If you don't like the way I run my site or the message I send, feel free to leave at any time. No one is making you stay.
"It's Christ's Church, and therefore Joseph's personal imperfections have no bearing on its structure or restoration."
Um, no. Jesus Christ didn't translate the book of mormon or the book of abraham or ordain anyone to the priesthood. Joseph did. He's the one who made the authority claims. If he's not an honest man, what basis is there for those claims being valid? His character has everything to do with it. If you can't trust the prophet, how can you trust the message?
The problem with that perspective is that it isn't Christian.
Joseph Smith was not a perfect man and he never claimed to be. In his own words, "I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my youth, and is acquainted with my native cheery temperament."
Joseph understood that he needed to rely on the Lord to repent of his sins, overcome his weaknesses, and receive guidance for the Church--and that's exactly what he did. The Lord said of him and the rest of the Saints in Doctrine and Covenants 64:
5 And the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom shall not be taken from my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., through the means I have appointed, while he liveth, inasmuch as he obeyeth mine ordinances. 6 There are those who have sought occasion against him without cause; 7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death. 8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened. 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.
Joseph did not have to be perfect to be the Prophet of the Restoration. If that was the case, no one would ever qualify for the position.
"Also keeping in mind that Joseph's personal character has no impact on whether or not the Church is true."
I disagree. Since so much of the Church is based on Joseph Smith and his experiences his character needs to be of the utmost importance and open for honest study and consideration. If he was untruthful about his experiences, then the Church is based on untruthfulness, which is not of the Lord.
I don't need perfect. But between sending guys on missions so he can marry their wives, claiming the papyri were written by Abraham's own hand, the Kirtland bank scandal, and the Kinderhook plates, surely the lord could have chosen someone with a bit more credibility when setting about to restore his one true church.
There's a fine line between salvation and drinking koolaid in the jungle.
Joseph was imperfect. Joseph did not tell the truth at times; witness that his claim that polygamy wasn't being practiced at the time that it was is a lie, regardless of the reasoning. It doesn't sound so nice to say so, but it is a truthful assessment.
If Joseph was incapable of transcribing Christ accurately or got some of the details wrong, or could bring himself to tell less than the truth, then any number of unique doctrinal items that we believe in can be wrong.
Like it or not, character matters. You would admit as much picking an accountant, a friend, or even a restaurant. It matters when determining if a man claims to speak the Word of God just as much.
Your beliefs are your business and mine are mine. A witness from the Holy Ghost is all I need. And quite frankly, I don't need to explain that to anyone to feel justified in my faith.
Say what you want about Joseph. But if that's the case, you have quite a lot of explaining to do to discredit the Book of Mormon. And that's not a matter of faith. That's a fact.
"As one of a thousand elements of my own testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon, I submit this as yet one more evidence of its truthfulness. In this their greatest—and last—hour of need, I ask you: would these men blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation on a book (and by implication a church and a ministry) they had fictitiously created out of whole cloth?
Never mind that their wives are about to be widows and their children fatherless. Never mind that their little band of followers will yet be “houseless, friendless and homeless” and that their children will leave footprints of blood across frozen rivers and an untamed prairie floor.9 Never mind that legions will die and other legions live declaring in the four quarters of this earth that they know the Book of Mormon and the Church which espouses it to be true. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death these two men would enter the presence of their Eternal Judge quoting from and finding solace in a book which, if not the very word of God, would brand them as imposters and charlatans until the end of time? They would not do that! They were willing to die rather than deny the divine origin and the eternal truthfulness of the Book of Mormon." Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Apostle of Jesus Christ
That's awesome! I love it!
ReplyDeleteI showed it to my husband (who is a ward clerk) and he loved it. He said he's going to print out a copy and tape it up in the clerk's office. :-D
ReplyDeleteThere are two callings I'm glad I will never have--bishop and ward clerk. At least being a bishop you get a cool seat on the stand. Tell your husband he's a hero :D
ReplyDeleteAnd what do you say to someone who, week after week, leaves Church more depressed than they were when they went in?
ReplyDeleteSomeone who stays for the sake of their family, but also feels, unbidden, a growing resentment at the realization that if he had to leave the Church in order to be sane and happy, then his family would feel less sorrow at his death than at his happiness?
Someone who after almost any church meeting feels growing within himself a desperate hope that there is no God and no soul, so that at least in death there will be some rest?
Someone who reads their scriptures and prays and fulfills a calling, but finds no peace?
Someone who finds he is far more able to be good to his family when he has stayed home "sick" on Sundays?
I would say to you, with all the fervor of my soul and every bit of certainty I can muster that Jesus is the Christ, and that His Atonement can restore faith and hope to you in your EVERY need.
ReplyDeleteDraw upon His strength in prayer, and ask to have the Holy Ghost to be with you. Read the scriptures with a sincere heart, trusting God to come to you through His holy word.
Retaining your membership in the Church cannot be a passive affair. Sometimes you must fight for it, and you must realize that Satan is real and he is working hard to pull you from the safety of the faith he knows you will find in Christ.
Endure well, my friend, and you will rejoice erelong.
What would you say to someone who found out that Joseph Smith sent a man on a mission and ‘married’ his wife while he was gone? What would you say to if you found out that 11 of his ‘wives’ had living husbands? That is what I have found out and now church just feels like a bunch of lies. When I hear about Joseph and Emma’s love letters, I wanna barf.
ReplyDeleteFor someone who is trying to separate yourself from the Church, you don't seem to be able to leave it alone. Otherwise, whether Joseph was an adulterer or a philanderer wouldn't matter to you, and you could be at peace with your misgivings.
ReplyDeleteTruth be told, you have a choice. You can choose to feel betrayed by something you cannot understand, living with that discontent for the rest of your life--or you can see Joseph for who he really is accept him as a servant of Jesus Christ.
The choice is yours.
Also keeping in mind that Joseph's personal character has no impact on whether or not the Church is true. If you're going to apostatize, let's not be sloppy about your logic.
ReplyDelete(Please do excuse my snideness. Joseph is very dear to me, as is Emma. I assure you I know a great more of them than you do, and I ask you to be civil in your treatment of them both.)
This flowchart, though lighthearted and well-meaning, is unbelievably condescending.
ReplyDeleteMost opinions are.
ReplyDeleteWords fail me. And I'm not even talking about the the flow chart that just blithely flits from solution to solution as if everything is black/white. The comments are what kill me. Holy condescending...
ReplyDeleteI would rename to "Paradox's Guide to Dismissing People Who Disagree With You."
ReplyDelete"Also keeping in mind that Joseph's personal character has no impact on whether or not the Church is true."
ReplyDeleteHow does Joseph's character have no bearing on the truthfulness of the church? He's the one that established it. If he's a liar, how are we to believe the foundational stories? Let's not be sloppy about our logic her.
BTW, so bold of you to hide behind comment moderation.
Um, no. Joseph Smith did not establish the Church. It's Christ's Church, and therefore Joseph's personal imperfections have no bearing on its structure or restoration.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like the way I run my site or the message I send, feel free to leave at any time. No one is making you stay.
"It's Christ's Church, and therefore Joseph's personal imperfections have no bearing on its structure or restoration."
ReplyDeleteUm, no. Jesus Christ didn't translate the book of mormon or the book of abraham or ordain anyone to the priesthood. Joseph did. He's the one who made the authority claims. If he's not an honest man, what basis is there for those claims being valid? His character has everything to do with it. If you can't trust the prophet, how can you trust the message?
The problem with that perspective is that it isn't Christian.
ReplyDeleteJoseph Smith was not a perfect man and he never claimed to be. In his own words, "I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my youth, and is acquainted with my native cheery temperament."
Joseph understood that he needed to rely on the Lord to repent of his sins, overcome his weaknesses, and receive guidance for the Church--and that's exactly what he did. The Lord said of him and the rest of the Saints in Doctrine and Covenants 64:
5 And the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom shall not be taken from my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., through the means I have appointed, while he liveth, inasmuch as he obeyeth mine ordinances.
6 There are those who have sought occasion against him without cause;
7 Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death.
8 My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.
9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.
Joseph did not have to be perfect to be the Prophet of the Restoration. If that was the case, no one would ever qualify for the position.
"Also keeping in mind that Joseph's personal character has no impact on whether or not the Church is true."
ReplyDeleteI disagree. Since so much of the Church is based on Joseph Smith and his experiences his character needs to be of the utmost importance and open for honest study and consideration. If he was untruthful about his experiences, then the Church is based on untruthfulness, which is not of the Lord.
I don't need perfect. But between sending guys on missions so he can marry their wives, claiming the papyri were written by Abraham's own hand, the Kirtland bank scandal, and the Kinderhook plates, surely the lord could have chosen someone with a bit more credibility when setting about to restore his one true church.
ReplyDeleteThere's a fine line between salvation and drinking koolaid in the jungle.
Joseph was imperfect. Joseph did not tell the truth at times; witness that his claim that polygamy wasn't being practiced at the time that it was is a lie, regardless of the reasoning. It doesn't sound so nice to say so, but it is a truthful assessment.
ReplyDeleteIf Joseph was incapable of transcribing Christ accurately or got some of the details wrong, or could bring himself to tell less than the truth, then any number of unique doctrinal items that we believe in can be wrong.
Like it or not, character matters. You would admit as much picking an accountant, a friend, or even a restaurant. It matters when determining if a man claims to speak the Word of God just as much.
Your beliefs are your business and mine are mine. A witness from the Holy Ghost is all I need. And quite frankly, I don't need to explain that to anyone to feel justified in my faith.
ReplyDeleteSay what you want about Joseph. But if that's the case, you have quite a lot of explaining to do to discredit the Book of Mormon. And that's not a matter of faith. That's a fact.
For posterity's sake
ReplyDelete"As one of a thousand elements of my own testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon, I submit this as yet one more evidence of its truthfulness. In this their greatest—and last—hour of need, I ask you: would these men blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation on a book (and by implication a church and a ministry) they had fictitiously created out of whole cloth?
Never mind that their wives are about to be widows and their children fatherless. Never mind that their little band of followers will yet be “houseless, friendless and homeless” and that their children will leave footprints of blood across frozen rivers and an untamed prairie floor.9 Never mind that legions will die and other legions live declaring in the four quarters of this earth that they know the Book of Mormon and the Church which espouses it to be true. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death these two men would enter the presence of their Eternal Judge quoting from and finding solace in a book which, if not the very word of God, would brand them as imposters and charlatans until the end of time? They would not do that! They were willing to die rather than deny the divine origin and the eternal truthfulness of the Book of Mormon."
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Apostle of Jesus Christ